Saturday, January 12, 2008

Paige Patterson and Dr. Vines

I am going to shock many of you with what I am about to say. But I feel it is the right thing to do. When this is over, I want to walk away from this knowing I did everything the Lord prompted me to do. And that I, in love, not only confronted the sin, but also defended when appropriate. We are not supposed to cast judgement without all of the facts. With DG, there are more than enough facts and allegations (a 20 year background), and biblically I Tim. 5:19-20 says, "Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning." This is talking about elders sin."
Now, my point. There are many things being said about Paige Patterson and Dr. Vines. I have my own personal feelings about what did and did not happen in the past, and even now. However, to blast them on this or any other site only based on what we are being told by the media and the past allegations of cover up, would be wrong. I Tim. 6:11-12,20-21 says, "...pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge...Grace be with you." What we feel was cover up, and what we are reading (I am guilty of this too) is in effect godless chatter and false knowledge. We really don't know what either man said or did outside of what is being reported to us. I know that I wish they had done more at that time and even now (making a statement admitting mistakes) but, we have to remember they may be wishing they had done more, they have to live with that knowledge every day. And no matter what they say publicly right now it can be misconstrued and taken out of context. I do fully believe they were in over their heads with DG back then, and I truly believe they did not know how to properly handle it. They made mistakes, but don't we all? Every day.
I am not defending them fully, but I have had a heart check and as I pray for the purifying of my heart and the correct motives, I must speak this truth out loud especially with so many of you reading and responding. I do not want to be responsible for passing judgement on these men. We know who the real criminal is here.
I do not believe either of these men condoned the behavior of DG, nor did they feel what he did was o.k. If they did, there would have never been an inquiry in 1991 - and I know personally they pursued all of the allegations that were brought to them in June 1991. I can't answer for any of the other times. I know Dr. Vines was sick over it and shocked. I met and talked with him during that time. I am sure they have regrets. If there were allegations overlooked and dismissed by Patterson, he and the victims and the Lord know it.
Do we really know that they did not warn the churches? No we do not. Do we know why Dr. Vines later spoke in DG's church? No, we can only speculate. Do we know why they have chosen not to apologize publicly for making some of these mistakes? No, although we are waiting and it would make us feel better. Should DG have ever had the ability to speak in a pulpit again? Absolutely not, and both of these men told him this to his face, and Paige Patterson stripped him of his seminary license to preach (whatever it is titled) he went on to preach without the license of a Pastor. And the last time DG contacted Patterson (one year ago), he again told him he washed his hands of him and because of his past and his divorce, he biblically was not worthy of Pastoring and he would not talk to him again. And Dr. Vines did not speak with him or associate with him for a number of years until DG came to him and lied saying he had completed treatment for sexual addiction and asked for his forgiveness, Dr. Vines extended him forgiveness but also told him he still should not preach. I know he later spoke in his church, he knows this was a poor choice. But we do not know the full story.
To crucify these two men over the sins and problems of DG would serve no purpose. To challenge these men to stand up now and humbly admit mistakes and ask for forgiveness is, I believe, totally appropriate, especially as they are leaders and called to a high standard. And what I would like to see is for them to now step up and help put an end to this problem within the church.
They cannot stop sin, but we need a system where sexual predators go on the books (especially after more than one allegation) some kind of record accessible by all churches to check before hiring Pastors or other staff. It is not enough to do criminal background checks because many times victims do no more than confront the church, so there is no public record. We need a system available to churches nationwide that prevents this. I know several people have asked for this for years (primarily I know Christa Brown has made this her mission) isn't it time now to make this happen. Such a simple thing really. Who better than two prominent voices like Paige Patterson and Dr. Vines? I am told there is a record within the SBC but it is private and only used by them. That does not help the churches! We cannot stop all of the predators, but what if it were a substantial number? DG would have never made it to Victory or Shiloh or FBC for that matter if this had been in place tears ago. Think of all of the victims who would have been saved - at least 50. That is a shame. That is the REAL issue here. Let's stop this abuse. Let God hold them accountable for their sins, but let's not partake in it by turning our heads. And let's not further the sin by tearing each other apart. I am preaching at myself here to. Christ loved the sinner but hated the sin. Let's focus on the sin and put the devil on the defense He wants this sin to destroy God's house and the families within. Let's make a strong circle in the name of Jesus and make the devil flee. He can only have the power over us that we allow, "Resist the devil and he will flee from you." DG was an impostor among us, he was falsely shepherding for his own gain. We need real men of God shepherding. Let's all allow God to make some good out of this, shall we? Who is with me on this? I think it is time for God to be glorified by us all doing the right thing. Thank you for your time as I rambled on, I cannot believe the time - I have chosen every word carefully and had to wait until the house was quiet to think clearly.


Tiffany Thigpen Croft said...

I need to make one side note, I cannot speak for their every action, nor for every victim that has come before them. I do not want to offend any of the past victims who may have been turned away. I know there were accusations of this in earlier years.
I am also not riding the fence here, I have my own personal feelings and thoughts as well.
I am simply wanting to state that we need to be very careful with the words that we choose and the fight that we fight.
And if they are wrong, they know it. They to will be known by the fruits that they produce.

Anonymous said...

First I am not shocked regarding your lastest comment. I believe that your heart is pure in all of this. I agree with what you're saying, because there is something that all who are mentioned can do.However, more important than that is, that when leaders in any church choose a pastor/elder,a deacon,or any othe leader for that matter, they should hold true to the guidelines according to 1Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:5-9.When is the church going to use the biblical view when dealing with ALL aspects of life period. Especially in terms of ruling God's house. They key is GOd's house. Some of us are men pleasers rather than God pleasers. Some of us are without strength. Some are ignorant and don't know any better and others just lost. But when you learn better, you must do better. You are accountable for what you know to be the truth. I pray that all involved in this terrible ordeal will search their heart soul and mind and seek repentance/and or salvation. Because after all, the Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance 2Peter 3:9
Praise God Tiffany that you still search your heart to make sure that you are on God's path.

Tiffany Thigpen Croft said...

I looked for this last night to post with my blog and I couldn't access the site.
This is something I posted on another blog (linked on my site) this is what I meant by saying I am preaching at myself also. This was my reponse to Pattersons statement and the reported allegations. To be sure that I am fully disclosing.
Posted on thebigdaddyweave blog:

Tiffany Thigpen Croft said...
What kind of proof do they really think we as victims have? Do we carry around a video camera hoping they will come on to us, or tape record phone conversations, or better yet a physical sample from someone being molested or raped by their Pastor? Are they kidding? How much proof do you need anyway when the Pastor admits to it? Then we are supposed to go a step further and prove it? It should never happen in the church, not once, not twice and certainly not the 4th and 5th time in different churches. That is the point of all of this! When they are found out in one church, they should not only step down from the pulpit, but then the authorities should be called in IMMEDIATELY (not after a month long church investigation. You state Mr.Patterson that you did not have the means to deal with such an issue - isn't that the point. So instead of atleast encouraging the victims to go to the authorities and let them investigate (or take it a step further, leader, and call them yourself) you decide to watch him walk away. Then, when he pops up at another church, remain silent, warn no one, and just hope he doesn't repeat his already repeated pattern.
You are looking worse and worse in the public eye. Just admit you made really bad decisions in this that you will regret the rest of your life, apologize to the victims for not having the wisdom in what to do. That sir, is called taking responsibility - that is what true leadership is all about. It is fine to hope and pray someone changes, and to believe them innocent at first allegation, but after that it is time to call in for help! God calls us to this in II Timothy 3:1-17 and especially your role II Tim. 4:1-5.
Please read these scriptures and pray for wisdom. It is time to speak some truth!

8:06 AM (Two days ago I believe)

I realize this may make me look like a hypocrite, and I'm sure nasty messages will come. That is why I stated I have my own feelings regarding this and that I had a heart check as to how to use my voice. I apologize if any of this mislead any of you.

Tiffany Thigpen Croft said...

with the permission of the author I have reposted this here as it pertains to this topic as well as the one she addressed originally.
Lady T said...
Anonymous: I appreciate your sharing. "Touch not God's anointed"? Was Jim Jones anointed by God? He had thousands of followers. You speak of rebellion and disobedience? It's disobedience and rebellion that led to his hiring at Shiloh and now the church has to go through pain and suffering of losing the man that they have grown to love and respect. Notice I am not judging him but scripture clearly states the qualification of a pastor as well as how to deal with immorality in the church 1 Cor 5.

Patterson was justified in letting him go and not having anything to do with him as that is what we are do do when we confront the brother, if he doesn't listen go to the elders and if he still doesn't listen have nothing to do with him. Paterson could not make him stop preaching. To be honest when this is all said and done, people will still follow him just as they did in Texas even after he confessed to adulterous affairs with women from various churches while being married.

Vines is a soft-hearted guy and did forgive as we are suppose to, however it was poor judgement for him to speak at Shiloh. Shiloh itself knew he impregnated a teen and the church paid a claim of $300,000 dollars and that was swept under the rug. Fact not fiction. So the church is reaping the sins of its own doing.

Satan is a liar. He used DG and because DG did not take the way of escape that God provided, he will be punished, whether man's law convicts him or not.

Anonymous said...

I agree everyone involved needs much prayer.

I would like to point out regarding Dr. Patterson that according to now deceased pastor E.K. Bailey of Concord Baptist Church in Dallas, when Pastor Bailey fired Gilyard behind reports from 25 women in his church that Gilyard was involved with, Dr. Patterson responded in an unusual manner:
"Paige Patterson wrote me an unkind letter over the whole ordeal,' Mr. Bailey said. "He basically told me that he would have come out to my church and solved the problem for me if I had told him first.'

Unfortunately this does not sound like a leader dedicated to protecting the flock.

Anonymous said...

I am lost with the latest blog Mrs C. Something is not sounding right. Anyway, pray.

Well, I heard about him in the early '90 and this is the same thing.


Tiffany Thigpen Croft said...

Which blog are you referring to - the latest news about the arrest or this one that you posted under? In other words, how can I help? I'd be glad to respond... Thank you.

Anonymous said...

"Paige Patterson wrote me an unkind letter over the whole ordeal,' Mr. Bailey said. "He basically told me that he would have come out to my church and solved the problem for me if I had told him first.'

Unfortunately this does not sound like a leader dedicated to protecting the flock.

January 14, 2008 6:08 PM

He is not dedicated to protecting anything but himself. There are way too many other situations Patterson has proven his disrepect for women to believe him now. He is facing a huge lawsuit at SWBTS for how he treated a woman professor. He fired her because she was teaching male students Hebrew Language and women should not teach men. this professor had a sick husband with heart failure and lost their insurance and everything. Patterson could have cared less about her or her family. Tell me, does a Christian leader have to SIN to follow scripture? In Patterson's case, he believes he did.

Oh, and when asked about his stance on women he said, Every man should own one.

So, don't give Patterson too much of a pass. Trust me, he is only about saving face and DG embarrassed him.

By the way, Patterson had no problem with Charles Stanley's divorce so don't believe that one, either.

Anonymous said...

I read what PP had to say to the victims. I heard him on the news last night and it's not the same stand he spoke back then.

I did not understand this PP and JV blog you wrote. I really did not want to go into it, because I did not want to discourage anyone from exposing them all. All I will say, you are not alone or by your self. Please remember this!

I love how the news is not letting off of this story. I heard it was on 20/20. The word need to be spread for a change to come.

I know about this all too well. I know the toll it can take.

Tiffany Thigpen Croft said...

Beverly, If you ever need someone to talk to you can e mail me privately.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Vines and Paige Peterson are now feeling shamed only because allegations are coming out about them. Pastor Darrell Gilyard is not the only man at fault. Dr. Vines not only visited Shiloh once, he visited several times and made reference of how wonderful DG is making jokes and staying at the Pastor’s home. Now, Vines is stating he made a mistake and use poor judgment, it’s that what DG did? A lot of people are at fault, because they ceased the opportunity to provide evidence. 1) Tiffany C: Parent’s allowed this man DG to assault their daughter, her parents didn’t file charges and Tiffany being an adult kept her mouth shout for years allowing DG to hurt other girls. Tiffany you should be sentence with DG, because you knew that he had a problem and did nothing to warn the church. Why wait until you about 40 to speak now? 2) One parent of the recent alleged victims, lied and stated she went to the deacons of the church first, the other parent never filed charges: Both parents should be charged with DG. This is a criminal act and the parents waited a month or so later to report the charge to JSO. 3). The Deacon’s at Shiloh should be charged for the crime for taking on an internal investigation that should have been handle by JSO, after learning that these were children; what actions were the Deacon’s going to take send DG on a paid vacation as a time-out. If Dr. Vines and PP is stating that DG should not be a Pastor because of divorce and affairs, how many other churches/Pastors should be included? For years this sin has been forgiven and overlooked, from President Clinton, Rev. Jessie Jackson, and the Rev. Kurt Franklin and many more…It’s not about the sexual impropriety, it’s about who’s who and money, that is why Dr. Vines came to Shiloh and lied to the church about how he loves DG and supports him. That’s why Shiloh accepted DG as pastor for money he would bring to the church, that’s why PP overlooked DG because of money. God is coming back for the church. And DG can be and will be forgiven for his sins, but you other such as Tiffany don’t forget to repent for your sins in this matter.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:35 There are absolutely no words to describe that bumbling,incoherent,unbiblical ranting comment you type.Please re-think it.Thanks

Anonymous said...

This is not good.

Mr6 said...

So, have you changed your mind about holding Patterson accountable?

I've been reading the comments and posts you made after this one, and it appears you might now be advocating holding Paige Patterson accountable for twiddling his thumbs while those underneath him suffers.

Tiffany Thigpen Croft said...

Mr. Walker,
It is not my place to hold him accountable. It is far out of my reach as well to even try to do it.

The main thing is awareness of the problem and wanting the rules for this behavior within the church to change. It should not be acceptable for any leader to not step up to the plate the first time an innappropriate action is done by a Pastor. When they do not expose it and deal with it immediately, it gives the Pastor more power and eventually exposes the leader also. I hope Mr. Patterson and others have learned from there mistakes and that it will be an example for others to act differently when presented this problem. I wish that they would step up and humbly admit their mistakes and what it cost the following victims - that is what bothers me the most.
Again, I cannot hold them accountable and I cannot judge them. Their own actions and inactions have spoken loudly. I am not out to punish anyone, just crying for help.

I pray for repentance by all involved in not exposing Gilyard for what he was and for looking the other way. I pray for change so that this will not continue to happen and we can have a sense of safety with our leaders again. Our eyes have been opened and I am not sure what steps should be next, I truly wish this was not happening.

I hope this answers your question Mr. Walker.

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